SDA

The Third Rome

62 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, David said:

So my questions was, would you still understand Ezek 38 in the same way without having Rosh identified as Russia?

Much the same way, yes, due to the other nations involved. But Russia doesn't necessarily need to be involved.

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2 minutes ago, Fortigurn said:

You will need to ask someone who holds that view. I don't.

After you finish your tarshish articles, can you work on who are the nations in Ezekiel 38?

 

And can you explain to me why Christadelphians believe in two Gog's? For me consistency of scripture Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20:8 must refer to the same Gog and thus event?

"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore." Revelation 20:7-8

How come Christadelphians won't let the NT intrepret OT (conditional) prophecies? But make the NT be interpreted to fit a literal fulfilment of all the OT ones?

I can understand their consistency of doctrine principle, well I would put it more accurately as continuation of doctrine principle, but for prophecy is different to doctrine surely the latest update (NT) trumps? For example, find me one prophecy of a second coming in the OT?

 

I have never seen any harmonisation and chronology chart by CD's of OT and NT prophecies side by side. I've seen a charts on Revelation (historism), speculative deas of the Millenium (based on OT), chronology of the 'Rainbow Angels march' but never a harmony of the them all.

If they did that then I would be impressed!

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On 15/03/2017 at 11:19 AM, SDA said:

Stumbled across this survey of Gog, do you know where in the text it talks about motivated by economic greed?

 

"Have you come to take a spoil?"

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9 hours ago, nsr said:

"Have you come to take a spoil?"

"He carried out from there all the treasures of the house of the Lord, and the treasures of the king’s house, and cut in pieces all the vessels of gold which Solomon king of Israel had made in the temple of the Lord, just as the Lord had said." 2 Kings 24:13

(This would be what I would lean to in term of the spoils, the bible always has religious relevance always in the forefront)

 

 

Why do some Christadelphian commentators speculate the spoil is oil?

http://www.thechristadelphian.com/christadelphian_november_15.htm

"Might it be that Russia will take advantage of its strong presence in the region, to broker a peace-deal that would enable it to get more ready access to the oil and gas reserves there – the “spoil” of Ezekiel 38?"

Definitely not what the original audience had in mind..

 

 

Found this interesting piece of Christadelphian writing:

http://www.testimony-magazine.org/back/jul2001/radbourne.pdf

(It seems to not have filtered down into Adelaide for 16 years and counting, at least about who the nations and tarshish is)

"In itself the small State of Israel is a prize not worth grabbing by a country like Russia; it is not an especially wealthy country, it is not oil rich, nor does it have many natural resources. But once Messiah rules over Israel and the world (chronological this happens at the second coming and the world is destroyed by the glory of his coming) then its material prosperity will be evident. And if in the meantime the judgements of famine, drought and pestilence, outlined in Zechariah 14:12-19, are brought on rebellious nations, the contrast will be all the greater."

"However, the prime motive seems to be material wealth. In Isaiah 60:1-17 and Haggai 2:6-9 the wealth and glory of the Kingdom age (misunderstanding by CDs what happens after the second coming) is outlined, and we can see the attraction that this would have."

 

http://www.christadelphianbooks.org/agora/comm/26_ezek/ezek39.html

"Today's Israel has no such attraction. But if the rest of the world has been ravaged by war and famine and pestilence (Mat 24:7), then the sudden prosperity of the Holy Land brought about by the presence of Christ and the glorified saints will make it enormously attractive to Gog!"

 

What ever the kingdom age holds (is there a difference between the kingdom age and the kingdom to CDs?) It shows Ezekiel 38 is not relevant till after the second coming!

Edited by SDA

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18 hours ago, SDA said:

After you finish your tarshish articles, can you work on who are the nations in Ezekiel 38?

Maybe. It's something I've posted on before on this forum. You've already seen the thread.

18 hours ago, SDA said:

And can you explain to me why Christadelphians believe in two Gog's? For me consistency of scripture Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20:8 must refer to the same Gog and thus event?

That isn't consistency of Scripture. Consistency of Scripture doesn't mean everywhere you see a word it has the same meaning in every place. It means interpreting words according to context. In Revelation the context is completely different to the context of Gog in Ezekiel, and different again to Gog in Genesis.

18 hours ago, SDA said:

How come Christadelphians won't let the NT intrepret OT (conditional) prophecies?

We do.

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2 hours ago, Fortigurn said:

Maybe. It's something I've posted on before on this forum. You've already seen the thread.

I remeber reading what you don't think they are and giving a vague idea of what you think they might be but I don't think you listed an equivalent for each nation.

Do you know why CDs think Sheba in Ezekiel 38 is not the same place as the Queen of Sheba is from? E.g Ethiopia

2 hours ago, Fortigurn said:

Consistency of Scripture doesn't mean everywhere you see a word it has the same meaning in every place.

Interesting

2 hours ago, Fortigurn said:

We do.

Okay well;

Do you think the New Jerusalem will be like it currently is but with some additions e.g. man-made or do you think it will be a 'pure gold' God-made city (Revelation 21:18)?

 

"I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." When does Ezekiel's temple get destroyed (assuming it is built)?

 

What NT prophecy suggest mortals and immortals together on earth during the millenium? And by extension how can the saints be 'ruling' the nations when the wicked by definition won't be in subjection (no suggestion of this in 1 Corinthians 15)

 

 

And of a different nature;

Why do Christadelphians believe in a secret second coming of Jesus? Who doesn't reveal himself until Gog attacks Jerusalem?

"Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. Luke 23:26

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1 minute ago, SDA said:

I remeber reading what you don't think they are and giving a vague idea of what you think they might be but I don't think you listed an equivalent for each nation.

I was a lot more specific than that. Here.

Quote

 

The main players:  Nations from Western Europe (possibly Gog), Eastern Europe (Magog, Gomer), and Turkey (Togarmah), Ezekiel 38:1-6

The minor players:  Traditional enemies of Israel such as Iran (Persia), Jordan (probably Cush), and Libya (Put), Ezekiel 38:4-5

 

That's very specific.

1 minute ago, SDA said:

Do you know why CDs think Sheba in Ezekiel 38 is not the same place as the Queen of Sheba is from? E.g Ethiopia

Who says the queen of Sheba was from Ethiopia?

"The most plausible location for Sheba is in the SW corner of the Arabian peninsula. This area, known in the native sources as Saba, already had an advanced culture by the early 1st millennium B.C. (and perhaps earlier), with urban complexes equal in size to other parts of the Near East, a sophisticated irrigation system to support agriculture, and important trade links N and W toward the Mediterranean basin and Mesopotamia and E to India (van Beek 1974:40–63). The merchants of Sheba were renowned in Israel and elsewhere in the ANE as traders in gold (Ps 72:15; Isa 60:6; Ezek 27:22; cf. Ezek 38:13), gems (Ezek 27:22), and incense (Isa 60:6; Jer 6:20) and myrrh—products grown in various locations near the South Arabian littoral (Nielsen 1986:19–24)."

Stephen D. Ricks, “Sheba, Queen of (Person),” ed. David Noel Freedman, The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary (New York: Doubleday, 1992), 1171.

3 minutes ago, SDA said:

Do you think the New Jerusalem will be like it currently is but with some additions e.g. man-made or do you think it will be a 'pure gold' God-made city (Revelation 21:18)?

The New Jerusalem in Revelation is not made of real gold. It is not a physical city. It is a collection of people.

3 minutes ago, SDA said:

When does Ezekiel's temple get destroyed (assuming it is built)?

I don't think it will be built. That ship has sailed.

4 minutes ago, SDA said:

What NT prophecy suggest mortals and immortals together on earth during the millenium?

I don't know any.

4 minutes ago, SDA said:

And by extension how can the saints be 'ruling' the nations when the wicked by definition won't be in subjection (no suggestion of this in 1 Corinthians 15)

What?

4 minutes ago, SDA said:

Why do Christadelphians believe in a secret second coming of Jesus?

A lot of Christadelphians believe this on the basis of a very old and completely uniformed speculation by John Thomas. A lot of other Christadelphains don't believe it at all. I am one of those Christadelphians.

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38 minutes ago, Fortigurn said:

I was a lot more specific than that. Here.

That's very specific.

Thanks

39 minutes ago, Fortigurn said:

Who says the queen of Sheba was from Ethiopia?

The Ethiopians do "According to one tradition, the Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel, "Falashas") also trace their ancestry to Menelik I, son of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba."

And "According to Josephus (Ant. 8:165–73), the queen of Sheba was the queen of Egypt and Ethiopia, and brought to Israel the first specimens of the balsam, which grew in the Holy Land in the historian's time."

And "In his commentary, Origen identified the bride of the Canticles with the "queen of the South" of the Gospels, i. e. the Queen of Sheba, who is assumed to have been Ethiopian"

And 'queen of the South' (Mt. 12:42; Lk. 11:31) could come from near where 'king of the south' comes from.

Though, I'm open to either. I only mention it because most evangelical when you say Sheba don't think Yemen but that could be because generic christians don't use bible dictionaries.

 

55 minutes ago, Fortigurn said:

The New Jerusalem in Revelation is not made of real gold. It is not a physical city. It is a collection of people.

Is that a historicist position or your personal one?

 

56 minutes ago, Fortigurn said:

I don't think it will be built. That ship has sailed.

I don't know any.

What?

A lot of Christadelphians believe this on the basis of a very old and completely uniformed speculation by John Thomas. A lot of other Christadelphains don't believe it at all. I am one of those Christadelphians.

I'm missing the other lot in Adelaide, where can I find a definitive guide to the second coming and millenium by the less speculative lot?

If I knew this from the beginning I would of given Christadelphians more credibility. I almost binned you guys in with the likes of Hal Lindsey.

I will withhold my judgement for now, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

In response to your what? It might not be relevant to your own views, so don't worry about it.

 

 

One think that has puzzled me with your version of historicist is how would anybody be able to understand Revelation without an encyclopedia britannica set?

Like we agree in the main but some of your fulfilments (because they aren't relevant to eccesial history), I didn't know those events existed and most likely wouldn't learn about them in high school history either.. And some of them seem to be local rather than 'worldwide'..

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On 18/03/2017 at 1:54 PM, David said:

Proving Rosh is Russia.

I think you would need to start by proving it is a proper noun and not simply Head.

Head prince of Meshech and Tubal

Before wasting time on working it out.

On 18/03/2017 at 1:22 PM, David said:

I've had trouble finding evidence for that. Would you still read Ezekiel as an end time prophecy related to Russia for other reasons?

Disregarding all the linguistic stuff it never made sense to me that it would say prince of (country) R, (city) M and (city) T

All of Ezekiel 38 is about nations (and perhaps countries) not capitals.

If anyone looks at a map they see Turkey directly in the north (and close proximity). Russia is north east.

I have doubts the ancient Israelites even knew Russia existed.

Do you know if Lebanon has even been a consideration for CDs?

 

Do you know what CD's made of Rosh = Ros = Rus = Russia when it was called 'Union of Soviet Socialist Republics' from 1922 - 1991?

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On 3/19/2017 at 11:11 PM, SDA said:

Do you know what CD's made of Rosh = Ros = Rus = Russia when it was called 'Union of Soviet Socialist Republics' from 1922 - 1991?

Yes, they still understood it to refer to Russia.

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