SDA

The Third Rome

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I've looked at A More Sure Word of Prophecy but haven't seen any historicist commentator that talks about the (russian) orthodox church being part of the Dragon? or about constantinople?
I can accept the papacy view but where does Russia come into the book of Revelation? especially since Revelation is a book dedicated to End Times/ Eschatology.

One CD explanation I've heard is that "Revelation is only what's revelant for the 'church'" but I don't think they realised that has implications especially if one considers they are part of the 'church/out called'.

 


 

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Russia doesn't come into the book of Revelation.

Sent from my Neville 5000 using Tapatalk.

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The bad guys of Revelation are all enemies of the servants of Jesus Christ. Gog in Ezekiel, if it's Russia, is an invader of Israel, motivated by economic greed.

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Does anybody know why in the Daniel 2 Image the 2 legs of iron are said to be the western and eastern roman empire when all the 10 toes are from western europe?

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Maybe because the toes represent the next stage of world history and are not directly related to what came before? Just as the Median and Persian empires did not completely take over the same territory that the Babylonian head occupied and was likewise succeeded by the Macedonian Empire, which again did not occupy the same territory as the Medes and Persians.

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6 hours ago, Hudders said:

Maybe because the toes represent the next stage of world history and are not directly related to what came before? Just as the Median and Persian empires did not completely take over the same territory that the Babylonian head occupied and was likewise succeeded by the Macedonian Empire, which again did not occupy the same territory as the Medes and Persians.

When did the legs transition to the toes because each empire is look at from a united perspective? unless you want to say the left and right arm of the statue represent the Medes and Persians respectively?

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14 hours ago, SDA said:

Does anybody know why in the Daniel 2 Image the 2 legs of iron are said to be the western and eastern roman empire when all the 10 toes are from western europe?

This doesn't make sense to me because the thighs (where the separation into two legs would actually start) were back in the bronze Greek period. The iron Roman period would start with them already separate. For all we know the statue in Neb's dream didn't have its legs separated.

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I'm not entirely sure that significance should be attributed to the number of toes, or even the legs. We don't attribute any significance to the two arms + chest, etc..., and we don't read of the bronze section splitting into four parts. The vision seems to be a much more high-level view of history that I think we often make it out to be.

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One could attribute significance to the two thighs as being representative of the king of the north and king of the south discussed at detail in Daniel 11.

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Isn't the Greek power consistently portrayed as dividing into 4? The leopard has 4 heads, the goat has 4 horns.

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3 hours ago, nsr said:

Isn't the Greek power consistently portrayed as dividing into 4? The leopard has 4 heads, the goat has 4 horns.

Well, yes and no. Symbols in each chapter focus on different elements to highlight particular things. Persia, for example is a lopsided bear in Dan 7 but a ram with 2 horns, one of which is broken off, in Dan 8. So Dan 7 just says there's uneven power in the bear, whereas Dan 8 makes the point that one power actually supplants the other.

The important thing to note is that these symbols aren't just about pagan history in general, but about pagan history insofar as it affects God's people. In relation to that, the most significant thing about the Greek empire(s) was to note how the Seleucids and Ptolemies impacted the post-exilic Jews in the holy land.

It's a fair point you make though and it's important not to push the symbology too far. Much like the parables. There's primary points being made overall, and some details are just part of the symbol/allegory's colour/flavour.

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Actually I'm not convinced Daniel 2 is really concerned with the Jews or Israel at all. It was a vision given to a Gentile in a Gentile land, concerning the fate of Gentile kingdoms and their eventual overthrow and removal.

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1 hour ago, nsr said:

Actually I'm not convinced Daniel 2 is really concerned with the Jews or Israel at all. It was a vision given to a Gentile in a Gentile land, concerning the fate of Gentile kingdoms and their eventual overthrow and removal.

The Aramaic section of Daniel overall seems to have more relevance to Gentiles, I agree. Chapter 8 onwards is more Israel-centric.

I guess in light of that then it's fair to say there's probably just 2 legs because men tend to just have 2 legs (i.e. just part of the symbol's colour not a core part of the message).

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On ‎7‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 8:30 AM, JoelP said:

I'm not entirely sure that significance should be attributed to the number of toes, or even the legs. We don't attribute any significance to the two arms + chest, etc..., and we don't read of the bronze section splitting into four parts. The vision seems to be a much more high-level view of history that I think we often make it out to be.

The only evidence I can think of about the number of toes being significant if it correlated with the 10 horns in Daniel 7:7,20,24 but it might just be a coincedence

On ‎9‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 7:23 AM, nsr said:

Actually I'm not convinced Daniel 2 is really concerned with the Jews or Israel at all. It was a vision given to a Gentile in a Gentile land, concerning the fate of Gentile kingdoms and their eventual overthrow and removal.

I think it can be both, because the Gentile kingdoms it concerns are the ones that rule over God's people.  It shows God's providence (Israel) and God's sovereignty (Gentiles).

On ‎9‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 8:52 AM, BDW said:

The Aramaic section of Daniel overall seems to have more relevance to Gentiles, I agree. Chapter 8 onwards is more Israel-centric.

I guess in light of that then it's fair to say there's probably just 2 legs because men tend to just have 2 legs (i.e. just part of the symbol's colour not a core part of the message).

That's what I thought but just clarifying because I've heard it several mentioned times by CD's and only from CD's..
"In the last two centuries of its existence it was divided into two parts: the Western Empire, based on Rome, and the Eastern, based on Constantinople – the two “legs” of the image".
http://www.thechristadelphian.com/bible_prophecy_online.htm

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I've been pressganged into standing in for someone doing a Bible class on Daniel 3, and it seems to me that one of the main themes of Daniel 1 - 4 is God's interaction with (and the possible conversion of) Nebuchadnezzar. That's for whose benefit the vision in Daniel 2 is given.

Edited by nsr
monkeys

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12 hours ago, nsr said:

I've been pressganged into standing in for someone doing a Bible class on Daniel 3, and it seems to me that one of the main themes of Daniel 1 - 4 is God's interaction with (and the possible conversion of) Nebuchadnezzar. That's for whose benefit the vision in Daniel 2 is given.

I think both again, benefit for Nebuchadnezzar (Gentile) and Daniel (Israel)?
God seeks to benefit all who are made in his image

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Just checking something, is it correction that Christadelphians take Revelation to be entirely linear in time (compared to a lineal trend) and thus place us currently in Chapter 16 of the time sequence?

My reason for asking is it suprised me the other day when I was told that all of Chapter 13 has been fulfilled??

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Just checking something, is it correction that Christadelphians take Revelation to be entirely linear in time (compared to a lineal trend) and thus place us currently in Chapter 16 of the time sequence?

My reason for asking is it suprised me the other day when I was told that all of Chapter 13 has been fulfilled??

No we don't believe it's entirely linear, we believe it contains recapitulation.

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6 hours ago, Fortigurn said:

No we don't believe it's entirely linear, we believe it contains recapitulation.

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That is reassuring, and what is the answer for is all of Chapter 13 fulfilled?

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6 hours ago, SDA said:

That is reassuring, and what is the answer for is all of Chapter 13 fulfilled?

Yes a lot of us (including me), would take chapter 13 as already fulfilled.

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7 hours ago, Fortigurn said:

Yes a lot of us (including me), would take chapter 13 as already fulfilled.

When did these verses get fulfilled and could you elaborate on the meaning of these verses?

Revelation 13:7-8

It was also given to him to make war with the [e]saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.  All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been [f]written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Revelation 13:13-15

He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.  

And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform [k]in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even [l]speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Revelation 13:16-17

And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, [m]to be given amark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark,either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 

Revelation 13:18

Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is [n]six hundred and sixty-six.

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On 07/09/2016 at 9:02 PM, BDW said:

One could attribute significance to the two thighs as being representative of the king of the north and king of the south discussed at detail in Daniel 11.

Isn't that still future?

Does people still think Russia is king of the north?

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On 16/11/2016 at 9:58 AM, Fortigurn said:

The sea beast pdf didn't address the verses, I mentioned.

"He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men." Do you really think it is just talking about burning at the stake? (We are still in the process of discussing what heaven is in another thread so I won't comment on that right now) but doesn't "signs" scream miracles to you as in the 7 "signs" of Jesus in the book of John (who I assume you believe also authored Revelation).

What suggests to you that the Gematria approach is the right one? I have seen mutiple different solutions that add up and that makes me think it is the wrong approach.

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1 hour ago, SDA said:

The sea beast pdf didn't address the verses, I mentioned.

That's because the sea beast PDF is addressing the beast of the sea, and the verses you're talking about describe the beast of the earth. Those verses are addressed in the beast of the earth PDF.

1 hour ago, SDA said:

Do you really think it is just talking about burning at the stake?

No. I haven't heard anyone say it means "burning at the stake".

1 hour ago, SDA said:

but doesn't "signs" scream miracles to you as in the 7 "signs" of Jesus in the book of John (who I assume you believe also authored Revelation).

Yes, false signs. Pretend miracles. The early apostate church was full of them.

1 hour ago, SDA said:

What suggests to you that the Gematria approach is the right one?

The socio-historical context. The text uses a phrase which is used specifically when referring to gematria. See page 4 of this PDF.

JBurke_The Value of Socio-historical Background to Exegesis.pdf

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